Raiding, Guard and Vigil Downtime Keywords

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Re: Raiding, Guard and Vigil Downtime Keywords

Postby Hazel » Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:44 am

My suggestion for the two endeavours in one DT would be:

Endeavour 1: Scouting recon, to see what the enemy's defenses are like.

Endeavour 2: everything set up ready to go for the large endeavour, with 2 outcomes. If the scouting endeavour indicates that you *can* take on the enemy successfully with what you've assembled, the resources are put towards the attack. If the scouting endeavour indicates that the enemy forces outweigh yours, then the assembled resources are put towards a basic action instead (e.g. defending some things, earning some money or IP, or something...). Or, you have a third endeavour on standby which is 'assist the big attack endeavour', that you chip in if Endeavour 1 indicates that extra resources will be needed, but does not get used otherwise.

Thinking about it, this is probably only worth the cost if you suspect the bad guy has something hefty up their sleeve, or if you have a one-off resource like help from another NPC that you don't want to waste.


On the theft of items:
I have no problem with it being possible to steal items from me (although IC I shall be very annoyed!). The way you're describing it, any raiding action taken against any of my dynasty assets could see key items being transferred from me to the other person? For example - someone decides to do a raid action in order to steal Shane's powerfist. So, is the base difficulty of their endeavour based solely on the value of the powerfist? And what asset is it they're going to do the raid against? A ship? Arkangel? Arboria? Or could any successful raiding action against, say, the Civilising Influence see a random item from our inventory (in the hands of a PC or in the stash) get handed over even if the item isn't on the ship (or has never been specified where it is)?

Where you say 'the other loot would be trade goods and currency' - is that *my* trade goods and currency, or below-abstraction currency that is assumed to belong to my dynasty but does not affect my spreadsheet of group funds?
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Re: Raiding, Guard and Vigil Downtime Keywords

Postby Bear » Tue Mar 22, 2016 10:50 pm

Darth Fanboy wrote:
Loot gained from PCs will be subject to a lot of abstraction, just to avoid having a constant track on every tool kit and sword in the arsenal.


Hazel wrote:So, for example, if my dynasty was raided by another PC group then they will get random piles of loot, and we might get ship damage and reduced output from a title, rather than anything in my inventory (which isn't in the downtime system) being taken away?


Example: Dynasty A has got Sword of Killing Everything Except Squid during the last uptime. Dynasty B wants it, but didn't get it. Dynasty B goes in guns blazing during the following downtime.

Assuming that the difficulty contribution is sufficient to meet the value of the target, and further assuming that any defences are overcome, the Sword of Killing Everything Except Squid is rewarded as loot. The other portion of the loot would be from other items, likely trade goods and currency for the most part.

We're aware that getting your shiney shiney loot taken away is going to be remarkably annoying, particularly if it puts a prop you've sunk time and/or money into out of use, butat the same time it was felt that this is something the system should support.


Does that not specifically go against what you wrote above? You can write "I'd like an Archaeotech Powersword, if possible", but not "I want Tryskellan's shiny new Hat of Fabulousness!", because the latter is way too specific.


As a more general point, I see the intent of allowing for piracy, but frankly, having to gamble that you won't be raided by other PCs, and if you gamble that you're not, you'll just lose stuff? What if our holds are empty at the time we're raided - will the attackers then walk away with nothing? It's very abstract, and as you yourself said, the system doesn't really allow for any forewarning about attacks - that alone is a point I'd consider strong enough to strongly consider the need for this system.

What is the need for it? What will it add to the game, and does the flavour and the mechanics make for good story, or annoyance?
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Re: Raiding, Guard and Vigil Downtime Keywords

Postby NeillC » Wed Mar 23, 2016 10:38 pm

I am really uncomfortable with the concept of having items taken off people in this way - especially as with many items you'd have to take it out of the cold, dead hands of the PCs in question, but to do it in a downtime you just need to get the numbers right.

I don't mind being raided for Trade Goods/currency, but I really object to specific items being targetted.
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Re: Raiding, Guard and Vigil Downtime Keywords

Postby Jodikat » Wed May 18, 2016 7:58 am

Yes, we were discussing this, and I felt like a couple of things came up a lot:

1: pretty much everybody I talked to did not seem to like the idea of people being able to steal specific items from each other. I feel like if most people don't want this in their game then maybe it shouldn't be? Especially when it comes to the possibility of being unable to use props that cost a lot of time and money to create. It seems like peoples' 'iconic' gear being plot-armoured would be fitting with the heroic theme of the game.

2: it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense as written? Like, if I understand this properly, the difficulty of stealing (for instance) Trsykellan's Shiny Hat of Fabulousness is entirely based on the cost of the Hat of Fabulousness, with no attention paid to the difficulty of getting on whatever ship it is on, getting past whatever guards are around, and fighting Tryskellen herself since she sleeps with it on. It seems like at least ships should have a security rating indicating how hard it is to get in and out unnoticed.

3: another instance of downtime actions being necessary just to stay where you are - either to guard or vigil or whatever, or to get things back when assets are attacked. We already have uptime events that have consequences that effectively take away DT actions - corruption cards, events like kidnappings or genestealer infections - and now we have DT risks that require DT actions, but we don't have any more DT actions. It feels like we're fast going to approach the point where it's not feasible to actually do anything in DT because you'll spend the whole thing fixing problems before they get bigger or guarding against future problems. This doesn't feel particularly fun.

4: as currently in play, if you don't invest a DT action in finding out who attacked you/stole shit from you, there are no clues whatsoever as to who might have done it. This seems kind of ridiculous. Somebody got on and off a voidship swarming with crew and absolutely nobody saw them? Ship and space station crew don't keep records of people getting on and off? The full complement of crew you're assumed to have doesn't include a single competent security officer?


I feel like maybe this has the potential to be an interesting mechanic but as is I can't really see how it adds anything to the game. Sorry to be negative, but that's how I feel atm.
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Re: Raiding, Guard and Vigil Downtime Keywords

Postby Mr Prophet » Wed May 18, 2016 8:23 am

My main concern, as someone who doesn't have much in the way of iconic gear yet ("This is my hand cannon. There are many like it. Really, lots of them.") is that these rules represent an action sink that will disproportionately affect smaller groups and individuals.

Realistic? Totally. Big, established companies roll all over start ups all the time.

Fun? Not so much. It's tough enough for Johnny Up-and-Coming to make bank, clear corruption and accumulate a little new stuff, without needing to burn actions to not have that stuff taken away from them.

Also, as someone who can just about afford to maintain kit and regularly attend games, I would be beyond pissed if I sank money into a prop for something only to have it stolen in downtime.
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Re: Raiding, Guard and Vigil Downtime Keywords

Postby Yoda » Wed May 18, 2016 9:34 am

Jodikat wrote:1: pretty much everybody I talked to did not seem to like the idea of people being able to steal specific items from each other. I feel like if most people don't want this in their game then maybe it shouldn't be? Especially when it comes to the possibility of being unable to use props that cost a lot of time and money to create. It seems like peoples' 'iconic' gear being plot-armoured would be fitting with the heroic theme of the game.


Conversely, if everyone's iconic gear is always safe, then there is never a threat as anything that isn't iconic isn't a problem to lose. There will be no plot-armour on that regard.

On another note, there is currently no mechanic except Raiding to remove items from the game short of those items being lost with the body. This is not helpful to the game as it makes the powerful more powerful without drawback and disenfranchises smaller groups who cannot afford to get such items.

Jodikat wrote:2: it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense as written? Like, if I understand this properly, the difficulty of stealing (for instance) Trsykellan's Shiny Hat of Fabulousness is entirely based on the cost of the Hat of Fabulousness, with no attention paid to the difficulty of getting on whatever ship it is on, getting past whatever guards are around, and fighting Tryskellen herself since she sleeps with it on. It seems like at least ships should have a security rating indicating how hard it is to get in and out unnoticed.


You seem to be under the assumption is it difficult to get onto ships in the 40k universe. These ships are crewed by millions of serfs, thousands of officers, and only a handful of players. Bribes are easy to arrange, as is the simple fact that no one may know them. If you're in the correct uniform, you're probably allowed on the ship.

Jodikat wrote:3: another instance of downtime actions being necessary just to stay where you are - either to guard or vigil or whatever, or to get things back when assets are attacked. We already have uptime events that have consequences that effectively take away DT actions - corruption cards, events like kidnappings or genestealer infections - and now we have DT risks that require DT actions, but we don't have any more DT actions. It feels like we're fast going to approach the point where it's not feasible to actually do anything in DT because you'll spend the whole thing fixing problems before they get bigger or guarding against future problems. This doesn't feel particularly fun.


I would correct you there, as I did at the game. Red cards and genestealer infections don't need to be dealt with as soon as you get them - regardless of how people might think they do. People don't need to be rescued. The entire point of us providing downtime endeavours that don't provide rewards is to make players choose between plot or profit - which rather is the point of a rogue trader game.

The first outing of Raiding against players was a demonstration of the rules in action. There will not always be as many actions.

Jodikat wrote:4: as currently in play, if you don't invest a DT action in finding out who attacked you/stole shit from you, there are no clues whatsoever as to who might have done it. This seems kind of ridiculous. Somebody got on and off a voidship swarming with crew and absolutely nobody saw them? Ship and space station crew don't keep records of people getting on and off? The full complement of crew you're assumed to have doesn't include a single competent security officer?


As stated above, your ships' crews are simply too big to effectively screen. And even if you did, would such screening stop someone statted like Winter is from just sneaking in and taking it anyway? There are explicit Scout powers that allow you to infiltrate an organisation which can be used for just this goal.

Mr Prophet wrote:My main concern, as someone who doesn't have much in the way of iconic gear yet ("This is my hand cannon. There are many like it. Really, lots of them.") is that these rules represent an action sink that will disproportionately affect smaller groups and individuals.


NPC Raids will primarily be focused on those who have things worth stealing rather than people who don't have much.
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Re: Raiding, Guard and Vigil Downtime Keywords

Postby Hazel » Thu May 19, 2016 8:03 pm

I am much more OOC worried about equipment being targeted than assets and titles and ships; even though IC I should be way more worried about our ships and titles than some sword.

Going for DT assets has a material impact on my ability to make more next DT, and can be done with a variety of narratives around what happens (sabotage, political manouvres, outright attack, etc.). I am not a fan, of course I'm not, I want to make as much as possible; but I can see how it helps the power creep issue as long as it's not spiking endeavours that have already been planned; and if the STs feel the need, can be targeted to hit more established groups.

For example, the ongoing attack on one of our titles - we got told about it in one set of DT results, and it impacted on what we could do with that title until we did an endeavour to fix it. Crucially, it didn't impact on what we do in uptime (except roleplaying being annoyed about it).

Equipment, on the other hand, is below the level of abstraction for downtime (unless it's a permanent skill item); so we never state where stuff is kept IC. We were told a weapon was stolen from somewhere that we never thought we kept it, which was a bit galling (indeed, a weapon was stolen that we didn't actually own, as it turned out... leading to a whole other issue around only bits of kit that are iconic being stolen because it's what storytellers know/think we have?).

It's also something that a lot of OOC time and money is invested in. There have been 'we'll focus it on people who can afford it’ and 'maybe we would just have it damaged but not missing if it was key equipment' comments, but there has been no clear set of boundaries or guidelines the storytellers will be following as to what they consider fair game. As there is no time between DTs coming out and the next uptime game for us to take action to recover items, this just leaves me with a huge amount of dread that one of my group is going to be without a key bit of gear they painstakingly phys repped, because we cannot guard everything; or that a character dies because their armour or shield got pinched and I had no way of buying a replacement.

I appreciate that the STs do not intend for this level of worry, and it seems like you guys have a line in your head of "X is fair game and Y would be a dick move" that you wouldn't cross, but we don't know what that line is. If anything, this DT's experience makes me inclined to stockpile *even more* equipment so that we always have tons of spares (and thus, lots of spare goods to continually buy and sell in an endless, zero-storage-space profit loop); which sounds like the opposite of what is intended.
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Re: Raiding, Guard and Vigil Downtime Keywords

Postby NeillC » Fri May 20, 2016 8:06 am

I agree with everything Hazel's said here.

While attacks on titles feel a lot like punishing people just for taking part, I can cope with that. Similarly, raiding people's trade goods feels appropriate.

But I have exactly the same issues as Hazel with equipment being attacked.
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Re: Raiding, Guard and Vigil Downtime Keywords

Postby Jodikat » Fri May 20, 2016 11:18 am

Yeah, I mean, as an example:

I own one LARP sword. My IC sword isn't anything special really, but if it gets nicked then - since I absolutely can't afford another one - I have to borrow swords from other people for probably as long as I keep this character. I bought the phys rep I have because the grip is suited to my tiny tiny hands, so my hardskill combat ability goes down due to having to use other peoples' swords where the grip isn't right - I find this tends to lead to a lot of being hardskill disarmed without use of the disarm call.
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Re: Raiding, Guard and Vigil Downtime Keywords

Postby Yoda » Fri May 20, 2016 11:53 am

Jodikat wrote:Yeah, I mean, as an example:

I own one LARP sword. My IC sword isn't anything special really, but if it gets nicked then - since I absolutely can't afford another one - I have to borrow swords from other people for probably as long as I keep this character. I bought the phys rep I have because the grip is suited to my tiny tiny hands, so my hardskill combat ability goes down due to having to use other peoples' swords where the grip isn't right - I find this tends to lead to a lot of being hardskill disarmed without use of the disarm call.


That is quite frankly neither here not there. Even if, for some reason, someone decided to steal Mal's sword that doesn't mean you can never use the phys-rep again. It doesn't even mean you can't use the phys-rep to represent another sword. The storytellers have much bigger things to worry about than whether you use the same phys-rep for a different sword.

The long and short of this argument is that you can either trust us to know what we're doing, or you can spend long hours on the internet debating with us. I prefer the former as it means I spend less time stressing, more time answering other queries, and more time writing the next event.

Will a group of pirates decide they want to nick Shane's powerfist? Maybe. Will they succeed? Maybe not. If they succeed will that mean that Phill can never use his phys-rep again? No. Will it meant that he might get to beat up the pirates in uptime to get it back? Maybe.

This is an evolving mechanic. It won't always be prominent, and it requires a lot of blind work on our end to make sure we're being fair to all parties. But the end goal is always to give you a story you can then go and do stuff with whether that's a downtime endeavour to undo the damage, an uptime encounter to rescue a lost item, or just a cool story to tell. Making sure you as a player get a good experience out of it, even if it's all gone badly for your character, is one of my primary goals as a storyteller.
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