Downtime System - I Think I Broke It

Discussions pertinent to the rules rewrite

Moderator: Artemis

Re: Downtime System - I Think I Broke It

Postby hofoengenar » Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:47 pm

Simple comparison:

1 Light Cruiser: MP: 195, EP: 100, Cargo: 25, Speed: 1, MP / EP recovery cost: 0.75 WU / point, Character Point Cost: 800
1 Frigate + 1 Destroyer: MP: 245, EP: 275, Cargo: 25, Speed 2 (+ 1 Destroyer only mission), MP / EP Recovery Cost: 0.75 WU / point, Character Point Cost: 600

Add to that the fact that the Frigate and Destroyer can split to go on different missions if you want them to and I don't see anything we've gained by spending the extra 200 Character Points, plus a lot we've lost. It doesn't add up.

Yes, resupplying ends up costing more, but that's to be expected because we have more MP and EP. It doesn't cost any more per point though.

Edit: Actually, if I remember right, there's a -25% modifier to the cost of resupplying on all the warships except the Light Cruiser, so even the resupply cost per MP or EP point is cheaper on the Frigate + Destroyer combo
Slice
Captain in the Pitbulls.
Definitely not a doctor.
hofoengenar
Marshall
Marshall
Slice
 
Posts: 93
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:29 pm

Re: Downtime System - I Think I Broke It

Postby Eladriell » Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:37 pm

Much harder for me to pit my DT vs you and remove your cruiser than blow the destroyer out of the sky. suddenly those CP's are gone. splitting resources amongst multiple endevours will yield weaker results. Running a fleet costs a lot of WU, i hope you have wealthy backers :P. if you dont use some ships, theyre pointless. if you dont commit the points on a ship during an endeavour, why does it exist? multiple ugrades on a large ship make it more secure/capable than splitting components over a fleet. Multiple PC's on a single ship is better than spreading people across multiple endeavours and contributing little.

Utterly off-top-of-head ideas as to benefits of concentration of resources into large vessels, dis/advantages on both sides ofc. I havent looked at the rules yet at all and am just voicing what seems reasonable from a scan of the topic.
"Educate Men without Faith and you but make them clever devils"

http://wiki.norestforthewicked.org.uk/Craven
User avatar
Eladriell
Midshipman
Midshipman
Lord-Director, Master G. Craven, DiGen NovaSec
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:55 pm
Location: Edinburgh

Re: Downtime System - I Think I Broke It

Postby hofoengenar » Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:11 am

Taking the parts slightly out of order, but:

Eladriell wrote: splitting resources amongst multiple endevours will yield weaker results... Multiple PC's on a single ship is better than spreading people across multiple endeavours and contributing little... multiple ugrades on a large ship make it more secure/capable than splitting components over a fleet.

Multiple ships doesn't have to mean multiple endeavors. It gives you the option of that, but you can also concentrate them all on the same endeavor. Basically more flexibility, no weakness. In the same way, when the fleet is kept together, so are the upgrades and the PCs. Neither of those parts are an issue.

Eladriell wrote: Running a fleet costs a lot of WU, i hope you have wealthy backers :P.

As covered earlier in the thread, it doesn't. There's no ship by ship upkeep any more, you just pay to replenish whatever MPs and EPs you've used. They have the same cost per point no matter how many ships they're spread across.

Eladriell wrote: if you dont use some ships, theyre pointless. if you dont commit the points on a ship during an endeavour, why does it exist?

That's the basic point. I wasn't suggesting that I actually want to buy 8 destroyers, but rather that if I want 200 MPs to fly around in I should just buy 2 destroyers rather than 1 cruiser and I'll save 1200 character generation points. That way, I still get the level of military force that I want and I'll still commit it to endeavors.

Eladriell wrote:Much harder for me to pit my DT vs you and remove your cruiser than blow the destroyer out of the sky. suddenly those CP's are gone.

That one I'll give you. That doesn't explain the massive cost / competency gulf by itself though. It's also somewhat balanced by the logic that if you do manage to sneak onto a ship and blow it up I only lose part of my fleet, not the full thing.

As an added bonus, if I buy a couple of destroyers then there's a good chance that my 400 character gen points can swing into your system and blow your 1600 point cruiser to kingdom come and there's nothing you can do about it. You can't even escape because, as well as being tougher, the destroyers are far faster.

It's basically the classic marketing muck up of a shop selling liter bottles of coke for £1 or 1.5 liter bottles for £2. Why would anyone ever buy the 1.5 liter bottle. If something's twice the price it needs to be able to be seen as twice as good, otherwise why would anyone not just get two of the cheaper one? Better than twice as good on some stats and worse on others is fine as it then just comes down to what you care about most, but worse on every stat just doesn't work.

I get that the STs have put a lot of effort into the new rules and are probably a bit protective after all that work, but this isn't a major flaw. It's just some numbers that are a bit out and can be sorted pretty easily by either modifying the ship power levels a bit or simply changing the number of character gen points each ship costs to fit the power levels. Work of 5 minutes and I'll shut up :)
Slice
Captain in the Pitbulls.
Definitely not a doctor.
hofoengenar
Marshall
Marshall
Slice
 
Posts: 93
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:29 pm

Re: Downtime System - I Think I Broke It

Postby Maakeff » Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:35 am

I would like to ask for a feature to be added to the system please - I feel it would be very useful to have a "View" option for characters stored on the system, so that the entirety of the character sheet can be seen at once in a simply, easy-to-view fashion. I expect and understand that such a feature would take time to code & implement, so please don't take any expectation of live date from this request - but I at least would find it very helpful. :-)
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

http://wiki.norestforthewicked.org.uk/Winter
User avatar
Maakeff
Lord-Captain
Lord-Captain
Winter
 
Posts: 256
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:49 pm
Location: Birmingham, the U.K.

Re: Downtime System - I Think I Broke It

Postby horzabora » Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:20 am

Hi Ben,

Short version and potted history:

You're probably right, we pulled numbers out of the air at start of play for what we wanted ships to be worth, then behind the scenes we 'balanced' them - no one complained, because you couldn't see the balance. Then when it game to updating the system, I revised how ships worked into something I felt was simpler (and I can assure you it is) but I didn't even look at character creation costs. So they've just been carried over.

Now that the numbers are public, you're quite correct that the numbers for character points are grossly in excess of the effectiveness of the ships vs one another or (as another very salient point I don't think you've mentioned) the rising costs of the ships themselves. Equally, the differences between the classes should (you're correct) perhaps be slightly bolder.

There are some things you've not touched upon - the availability of space for weapons and supplemental components, for example. A light cruiser is capable of being much more dangerous and is more versatile than the destroyer, for example. But my gut instinct is that's not enough on it's own to justify the range in creation costs (the range of in-game costs is fine) - it was how I balanced them in my head (well a starting light cruiser can't beat two destroyers, but one with plasma cannons on both broadsides and castellean shields can) but that's actually not a fair comparison.

I confess I am more prone to change the creation point value than the effectiveness of the ships, but I'll take a look at both options. I would actually pit four destroyers or three frigates against a light cruiser, based on the old Battlefleet Gothic force selection choices - or maybe that's against a heavy cruiser.

Anyway, as I said I'll look at it. Whatever happens will be a 'minimal changes' approach - I think probably I might give the hulls a base MP/EP/Cargo number to split them apart into classes if numbers need changing.
Rob Collins
Creative Director: Conflict Resolution
Lead Storyteller: Inquisition Chronicles
Storyteller: No Rest for the Wicked
"A good soldier obeys without question. A good officer commands without doubt."
User avatar
horzabora
Storyteller
Storyteller
Creative Director
 
Posts: 283
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:50 pm
Location: Edinburgh

Re: Downtime System - I Think I Broke It

Postby horzabora » Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:24 am

Mark,

Feature requests should probably be e-mailed to Yoda. But don't take my word alone on that ;)
Rob Collins
Creative Director: Conflict Resolution
Lead Storyteller: Inquisition Chronicles
Storyteller: No Rest for the Wicked
"A good soldier obeys without question. A good officer commands without doubt."
User avatar
horzabora
Storyteller
Storyteller
Creative Director
 
Posts: 283
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:50 pm
Location: Edinburgh

Re: Downtime System - I Think I Broke It

Postby hofoengenar » Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:50 am

That's great. Cheers Rob
Slice
Captain in the Pitbulls.
Definitely not a doctor.
hofoengenar
Marshall
Marshall
Slice
 
Posts: 93
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:29 pm

Re: Downtime System - I Think I Broke It

Postby horzabora » Mon Sep 01, 2014 7:13 pm

Five minutes work... not so much :)

I have revised the ship stats, they are available here: https://copy.com/BeLZlZe3ohmE

They now scale neatly, as a consequence the upper level ships are now worth more in the way of WU, which actually oddly helps bring them into line. I am pretty happy with those changes.

You will note that there are currently no creation costs associated on that sheet, that's because they need a bit of work - or rather, what to do to existing ships when those costs are revised (I am currently leaning towards 1/10th of the cost as the CP cost).

It should be noted, ships bought with CP cannot be sold for their full value, it is assumed that while legally owned by the character or their dynasty, they are tied up in a web of favours, part ownership, shares and other factors that reduce the profit made when they're sold to the CP value in WU.
Rob Collins
Creative Director: Conflict Resolution
Lead Storyteller: Inquisition Chronicles
Storyteller: No Rest for the Wicked
"A good soldier obeys without question. A good officer commands without doubt."
User avatar
horzabora
Storyteller
Storyteller
Creative Director
 
Posts: 283
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:50 pm
Location: Edinburgh

Re: Downtime System - I Think I Broke It

Postby Yoda » Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:41 pm

horzabora wrote:Mark,

Feature requests should probably be e-mailed to Yoda. But don't take my word alone on that ;)


That is a much easier way to do it.

Single-page character view comes under the "non-crucial, so it can wait" category of features on my list to implement. Believe me when I say we don't use the multi-page settings to view your sheets when it comes time to do downtimes.
- Yoda.
Do you hear the voices too?!
User avatar
Yoda
Storyteller
Storyteller
Code Cultist
 
Posts: 791
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:03 am
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Re: Downtime System - I Think I Broke It

Postby Maakeff » Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:37 pm

Yoda wrote:Believe me when I say we don't use the multi-page settings to view your sheets when it comes time to do downtimes.

I do believe you - it's all kinds of awkward. Hence why I would like that facility too.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

http://wiki.norestforthewicked.org.uk/Winter
User avatar
Maakeff
Lord-Captain
Lord-Captain
Winter
 
Posts: 256
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:49 pm
Location: Birmingham, the U.K.

PreviousNext

Return to Rules 2.0 Rewrites

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest